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[/vc_column_text][vc_column_text]After three years of appealing The Center for Bio-Ethical Reform’s Genocide Awareness Project to Westmont College, which would bring the truth and reality of abortion to the students, and after being denied by the Westmont College Student Association for three years, I resolved to show the students what the college was choosing to hide from them.
This morning (10/23/12), starting at 8:30 am, I stood outside of the Dining Commons with Timothy Eaton (friend and local videographer) and Todd Bullis (CBR friend and colleague) to show students what abortion is and does to a living baby. We used Church Project signs to exhort Westmont to action with key verses below the image. Given the early start time, it was quite awhile until the Westmont “powers that be” came out to shut us down.
Most of the students just walked right by as if we were either invisible or a force to be avoided at all costs. There were some though who stopped to talk and one woman who ended up allowing us to interview her on video, in which she stated that though previously undecided on the abortion issue, the graphic reality of the abortion imagery pushed her to establish a pro-life stance. She thanked us and wished us the best.
Soon after that, we encountered two rather argumentative students, one whom hated the fact that we were standing outside of the eating area, and another who simply refused to acknowledge the importance of graphic imagery to expose the horror of abortion. At one point, she brought up the “economic status” pro-abortion argument, at which point I asked: “Should we allow parents to kill their toddlers when they get expensive?” She immediately said that those were two different cases “because I don’t think that a four week fetus has the same status of personhood as a three year old toddler.” Keep in mind; this is a Christian woman at a Christian college.
It was at this point, about 9:50 am that the Westmont “powers that be” came to shut us down. Two Westmont officials who hold significant positions came and asked if I had approval to stand on campus with the imagery and when I said no, he said that he had to ask us to leave and put away the images. I told him that I refused to do that and as a tuition-paying student, have every right to exercise my free speech. He then proceeded to make sure that Timothy Eaton and Todd Bullis left the campus, but not until both Tim and Todd got out a word or two.
The conversations that ensued from this point on were essentially “gang-up-on-Seth” and all but a couple rare individuals were vehemently opposed to my “tactics” because the feelings of born people were going to get hurt and offended. I was at a loss for response when three separate women began crying in response to my unwillingness to turn the imagery away when preview students passed by or my general refusal to put the images away for the sake of the security of students on campus. It is almost illogical for these women to be so grieved by the feelings of their peers that I will be hurting, when there will be roughly twenty-five babies killed this week in Santa Barbara. Talk about misdirected grief. The focus on the feelings of “others” over the lives of the unborn made me sick and confirms my belief that something radical (such as showing graphic abortion imagery) is needed to call this college’s conscience back to the gospel.
Some of the views that the faculty and student leadership expressed were beyond odd and left me at a loss for words. For example, a complaint that was repeatedly brought up was the fact that my display was not optional and students shouldn’t be forced to see these horrific images. They recommended a more optional approach. This suggestion is odd because had they approved a Genocide Awareness Project, their wishes for students to be notified and given the choice to opt out would have been granted. A Genocide Awareness Project functions specifically to notify students with warning signs posted as far as 100 meters out and I had even recommended, had the GAP been approved, that the college send out an all student email to notify people of the presence of this display on campus. In other words, I agreed with these people that students should be given the opportunity to not see these images, which is exactly why I proposed a Genocide Awareness Project for three years in a row. This is a prime example that pro-aborts and pro-lifers that don’t agree with the use of graphic imagery will always raise the bar higher and give more reasons for why we’re wrong.
At least one important victory was won today and that is that Westmont did not make me leave or require that I put away the images. They asked me to stop, but after I refused, it was clear that they really weren’t sure what to do. It is quite obvious that Westmont has never had an abortion abolitionist enroll in their school and they are now in foreign territory. They aren’t entirely sure if I will do this again or how soon or how often. The ball is in my court and I intend to score. There are still many intellectually honest people at Westmont and many who were very affirming today and set aside time to thank me and encourage me in the Lord.
There were obviously many Christians who expressed strong disagreement with what I was doing, but someone is wrong and someone is right. Our God is not a God of relativity and if He is, then I don’t want to serve that God. It is not possible for one spirit-filled Christian to acknowledge that abortion is a good thing that needs to remain legal or that is “pro-life” but won’t effectively engage this evil for fear of offending others, and for another Christian to say that abortion is an indefensible act of violence that takes the life of an innocent unborn human person. I don’t want to be on the wrong side, and for the sake of the gospel and the sake of the precious unborn babies, I don’t want Westmont on the wrong side either.
In the end, Westmont must ask themselves if they care more about the feelings of born people or the lives of unborn people. Babies’ lives are at stake, women’s health is at stake, and the response of the Church is at stake. Time will tell whether the heart of Westmont will be burdened for life or not.
Written and signed by,
Seth David Gruber
Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act. -Dietrich Bonheoffer
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First of all, Westmont College has every right to deny any proposal for the security of its students and the institution’s desire to remain neutral on a particular subject, especially if the faculty, staff, and students all have different views on the subject.
More specifically–and I am not an speaking on behalf of Westmont as an institution but rather placing my personal beliefs in the context of the institution–abortion is not a genocide. Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines genocide as “the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.” If abortion even were to be considered murder, it would not be a systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. Fetuses are not a racial, political, or cultural group, nor are people systematically making the decision to have abortions and wipe out infants in the world.
Additionally, your complete lack of tact appalls me. If students want to explore the graphic images of abortion, students can do that by a Google image search. They should not be subjected to an unsolicited viewing outside their dining hall. There is a reason that Westmont had denied your petition to show these images. What did you think you could accomplish by spitting in the face of your institution’s decision?
As a firm believer in Christ and an advocate of pro-choice sentiment, I am offended by much of the vocabulary and syntactical choices you make. I am not “pro-abort” but rather “pro-choice.” While I may or may not advocate abortion, I do advocate the right to choose. But the right to choose means the right to choose an abortion or to carry the fetus to term. My hope, as a Christian, would be that potential parents would choose life but I also recognize that there are many factors at play to affect the decision made and I am not capable of making this difficult decision for anyone else. These outside factors can be anything from a financial question to a health-related issue. In some cases, women choose an abortion because their life is at stake (one particular example of this is Rick Santorum’s wife who had a life-saving abortion). In fact, the abortion procedure is often used to remove the remnants of a miscarried fetus. Should women have to live with the unfortunate tragedy of a miscarriage for nine months because you don’t support abortive procedures?
“Talk about misdirected grief.” Talk about guilt-inducing language. I think that your choice in terminology is corrosive to a dialogue about differing opinions. People should not be “pushed into establishing a pro-life stance.” Engaging in a conversation, whether or not people change their opinion, is more important than forcing people to blindly follow you. Hiding your radically conservative stance on abortion behind Scripture does not support you but perverts the Word of God.
Our Student Handbook has some very clear policies about conduct,
“Abuse of the Student Conduct Process: Any form of abuse of the student conduct process in and of itself is considered a serious concern for the community. Some abuses of the student conduct process include, but are not limited to:
Falsification, distortion, or misrepresentation of information;
Filing a complaint knowingly without cause;
Attempting to discourage an individual’s proper participation in the process;
Attempting to influence the impartiality of a participant;
Harassment (verbal or physical) and/or intimidation of a participant;
Failure to comply with the sanction(s) imposed.”
You have distorted Scripture alongside a misrepresentation of facts about abortions. You have attempted to dissuade people from a neutral position or force them into believing the exact same things that you do. By refusing to engage in conversation, you have discouraged proper participation of your peers. You have used graphic images to visually intimidate people, which then resulted in multiple people having a charged emotional reaction.
You are also asked to “Compliance with College Officials: Students are required to comply with the direction of college officials or Public Safety officers acting in the performance of their duties,” which includes being asked by, in your words, “the Westmont powers that be” to stop your so-called protest. You have “disrupt(ed) and interfere(d) with the right of other students, faculty [and] staff to participate in the educational program and/or perform duties imposed by the college; disrupt(ed) the normal operations of the college and infringe(d) on the rights of other members of the college community.” You have been asked to be aware of offensive and obscene content and to “refrain from conduct that is offensive to others, lewd or indecent. Such conduct includes, but is not limited to, streaking and profane or obscene expressions or speech that violate accepted standards of decency and Christian conduct. Discretion should also be exercised regarding videos, periodicals and posters.” You did NOT show discretion in the graphic images on your posters.
Abortion is not a polarized issue. It’s a very emotional one and the most extreme positions are often the most outspoken, but this is not a black and white issue. People can have different opinions about controversial issues and that has to be acceptable.
Thank you Caitlin. Well said.
Thank you
This reply could have easily been an archive from the late 1930’s and early 1940’s relating to Jews in Germany. In fact, US citizens were appalled when caring people would show pictures of that holocaust.
Who cares about if this offends you or makes you uncomfortable? Consider how the children being aborted feel. They do feel it. They are alive until another human decides to end their life-BY CHOICE.
Having the CHOICE to do something does not make it less of a sin.
Actually, this reply cannot easily be archived from WWII because: it is not about the Holocaust, it is about abortion, abortion is not genocide and should therefore not be compared to the Holocaust, and it primarily focuses on the Westmont College Student Handbook which, in case you were confused, did not exist in the 30s-40s to tell German soldiers not to do their job (that’s what heightened propaganda and scare tactics are for).
I think a lot of people care about how images exposed to their mundane life make them feel. The images can be presented in a way that students, faculty,and staff will not be offended–this is not that way.
I’m going to respectfully disagree on your comment about “how the children being aborted feel.” Abortion is a complex issue precisely because people do not agree on whether or not a fetus is a child. Using loaded language will not help you to get people on your side; it will only hinder them from actually listening to you.
We are not called to judge the world for their sins. I’m sure that you and I have both sinned but we are asked to be compassionate to one another, regardless. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God, but how we act will determine whether or not we create a healthy environment for others to see and follow.
James 2:14-26 NKJV – Faith Without Works Is Dead.
Girl, get real. C’mon, people used to say the same thing about the slaves they owned. It’s ok not to pay ’em cuz they’re not competent. We;ll I can tell you this. Their are witnesses who testify to the child’s ability to feel pain. Any benefit of the doubt, you as a ‘non-judgmental Christian’ can give, should have already of been given.
scroll tot he bottom of this page and bear witness to fetal pain, dear sister: https://cityofangelsnativemission.com/DONATE/Website-Development-Page—QUOTES.htm
And ‘this is not a man’s issue.” Ha!! That baby didn’t make itself, girlfriend! Just because you want to be in the dark, doesn’t mean there’s not some other girl in pregnancy crisis that needs the good services Seth is donating.
If you don’t respect the honor and good deeds of others don’t drag any one else into the mud with you.
Caitlin,
Can a Christian institution claim to be “neutral” on matters of justice and mercy? Jesus called them hypocrites who made all the appearances of being Godly men, but ignored the weightier matters of the law, including justice and mercy.
You do err when you fail to know the history of the word genocide. For example, you conveniently failed to recognize that UN General Assembly Resolution 96, adopted in 1946, defined genocide as “a denial of the right of existence of entire human groups, as homicide is the denial of the right to live of individual human beings; such denial of the right of existence shocks the conscience of mankind …” Resolution 96 goes on to say that “genocide is a crime under international law … whether the crime is committed on religious, racial, political or any other grounds …” The entire human group being denied the right to live is unwanted preborn children. In 1948, it was necessary to adopt more restrictive language, because the Soviet Union would veto any language that could be applied to Stalin’s mass murders.
Your anger at Seth is curious to me. It appears that you are more angry at him for showing the pictures of dead children than at the abortionist for actually killing the children. How can that be?
Yes, it would be more convenient for Christians if they never had to be confronted with the results of their own complicity/complacency regarding injustice. Your letter reminds me of the segregation apologists who told Dr. Martin Luther King that it was OK for him to talk about racism, but not out in public where it would bother white people. He should talk about racial injustice over in the Black church, among people who cared about racism. Everybody else didn’t want to be bothered about it. Thankfully, Dr. King made it his business to bother people about racial injustice.
You claim that it is “acceptable” for people to hold different opinions about controversial issues. Yet you believe that the Westmont should force Seth to sit down and shut up, because presenting facts interferes with the “right” of Westmont students to ignore and trivialize this injustice. Of course, you reserve for yourself the right to decide whose voices are heard and whose are not. According to you, the mere act of Seth trying to persuade people to change their minds is a violation of the rules that cannot be tolerated. Would you allow Seth to similarly control your speech? I thought not.
Fletcher,
Let’s point that question of justice and mercy onto the matter at hand: is it just and merciful to call struggling young women ‘murderers’? Is it just and merciful to disregard people’s opinions about controversial issues just because they don’t agree with yours? A Christian institution can choose to remain neutral on heated controversial issues while still claiming a firm position on being merciful.
As for the history of the word, I point to a dictionary definition rather than a historical one. Even acknowledging Res. 96, one must keep in mind the literal definition of the word and the ways that society chooses to paint it. it comes from the Greek “genos” meaning “race, kind.” Additionally, abortion–which I still hold as not being genocide–is not done on religious, racial, or political grounds, but on very personal grounds. Because I do not classify abortion as genocide, any argument for Res. 96 condemning abortion is not an argument that will affect me, especially considering that the Resolution infers that the peoples being killed are already alive, particularly in the statement that “Such denial of the right of existence shocks the conscience of mankind, results in great losses to humanity in the form of cultural and other contributions represented by these human groups.”
I have no anger at women who get abortions. I am disheartened that Seth will polarize a debate to condemn women who receive abortions and those who take a pro-choice stance on this issue. As I have stated previously, I am pro-choice in the hopes that potential women (and hopefully the men as well) will choose life, knowing that it is their very difficult decision to make. As I’ve stated previously, part of this debate comes in the question of “do we qualify a fetus as a child?” Because of that question, I am not comfortable being angry at, to use your language, “the abortionist for actually killing the children.” Even if I were to see a fetus as a child, why be angry with those who have to complete the task? I highly doubt that these doctors get joy out of the task. Would you condemn the veterinarians at the pound who have to put unwanted animals to sleep? Why not have compassion on them? (This comparison has been given but it is not a perfect comparison, considering the animals at the pound are living, breathing, fully-formed creatures who have experienced life in the world already.)
I have never said that Seth should “sit down and shut up.” I have said that Seth should follow student conduct and work with Westmont to provide an appropriate venue for this images. Seth is not presenting fact: he is presenting opinion. Do be sure to make that distinction. I have no qualms with engaging about controversial issues, but that has to be treated with sensitivity. The guilt-inducing language and condemnatory speech used by Seth is inappropriate in this context and that is what I have an issue with. I highly doubt he, you, and many others would appreciate if I were to stand outside the DC with posters about injustices toward sexuality and gender rights.
In some ways, the institution I chose HAS affected and controlled my speech because I know that, if I want to engage in highly controversial issues, it’s important that I do so in such a way that I not alienate or condemn my peers. For example, I think that it’s not okay for students to ignore and trivialize the injustices toward trans* individuals, women, people whose sexualities do not match a hetero-normative narrative, those who have to suffer genital mutilation, etc. But I’m not going to stand outside the DC with posters that have gory images of brutally beaten and mutilated people alongside quotes that condemn my peers for not sharing my exact beliefs.
Caitlin/goingpostale,
I’m not aware that Seth or anybody associated with him called women murderers. We never condemn anyone who disagrees with us or has participated in abortions in the past. In fact, many people who work in the pro-life movement have had abortions they now regret. We don’t condemn people who have participated in abortion, any more than we condemn slave-owners George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, etc. These were great men who made a grave error about a serious issue. We do, however, condemn slavery and abortion, because these institutions unjustly steal the lives of innocent human beings.
As to whether Christians can be neutral about injustice, your argument is with God’s Word, not with us. You can start with Proverbs 24:11-12. Also Jeremiah 32:35-36, Jeremiah 19:4-9, Ephesians 5:11, Psalm 106:38-41, Exodus 20:13, James 1:7, Jeremiah 7:1-7, etc.
Regarding your question “Is it just and merciful to disregard people’s opinions about controversial issues just because they don’t agree with yours?” The implication is that Seth is “disregarding” your opinion or “polarizing the debate” simply by expressing another view. Applying that same standard to yourself, aren’t you disregarding his opinion and polarizing the debate as well. Here is the difference: Seth is respectfully dissenting against the status quo; he is not advocating that you be silenced or be secluded in a remote location. He is arguing against your position; he is not suggesting you are doing wrong by simply arguing your position.
As to your argument that abortionists get no joy from killing the preborn child, it makes no difference. The preborn child is still just as dead. You can find many examples of Nazis who got no joy from killing Jews; yet they still did the deadly deed.
The fetus is a living human being. That is simply a fact. Science is unambiguous in identifying this child as a whole, distinct, and living human being. You can prove this to yourself by going to any medical school text on embryology. You can read admissions by leading pro-abortion philosophers like David Boonin and Peter Singer. More here: http://www.prolifeoncampus.com/dynamic_pages?page=When%20Does%20Life%20Begin%3F&id=13
If you believe that we can draw boundaries that exclude some human beings and then say that we can kill those outside our arbitrary boundary, but we must respect the lives of those inside our boundary, then please tell us where those boundaries are. How did you arrive at such boundaries? Be careful, because every time people start drawing such lines, we get in huge trouble. And notice that you, like all the other boundary drawers before you have done, drew the boundary in a way that included yourself.
Yes, you want Seth to be silenced. Or else you want Seth to be removed to some isolated place where he cannot be seen. For all practical purposes, it’s the same thing.
You say that Seth is not presenting facts. Let’s be clear. The pictures are the facts. This is what abortion looks like. The quotations from the Bible are similarly not made up; they really are in the Bible. The fetus is a living human being. That’s also a medical fact. That fetus is neither dead nor nonhuman. The only opinion being expressed is the opinion that the humanity of that child matters. To Seth (and to me), it does matter. Yes, that part is opinion, but it is based in basic science, philosophy, and God’s Word.
You say you want Seth to treat the issue with sensitivity, but you define sensitivity as staying out of sight. Regarding your advocacy for sexuality/gender rights, you should by all means publicly oppose any violation of those rights. If you have evidence that people are being killed because of their sex or gender, please make people aware of those violations. But who is ignoring or trivializing injustices toward “trans* individuals, women, people whose sexualities do not match a hetero-normative narrative, those who have to suffer genital mutilation, etc.”? Wherever people are being systematically mutilated or killed for any of these reasons, we all oppose it. The difference is that injustices of that kind are already illegal in America. Killing preborn children is not.
In reply to “going postal”, how sad that you would trivialize the life of a human child by comparing it to that of an animal put down by a veterinarian, but even so, animals are treated with more compassion and humanity than unborn human beings. The tragic thing is that you seem to deny the sanctity of human life from conception to birth.
Rick Santorum’s wife did NOT have an abortion. Karen Santorum had a second or third trimester MISCARRIAGE!!!!!!!! Big difference! The Santorum family would be appalled at this lie of pro-aborts being repeated here. It is a sad and sick sign of our society that so-called “:Christians” are advocating in favor of aborting children. Abortion is an intrinsic evil, meaning that it is NEVER right – and there is no – NO CASE in which is it is necessary to intentionally dismember a baby to save a mother’s life. Look up pro-life physicians. BOTH lives can be saved. A cesarean can always be performed, and the baby’s life can be saved at 22 weeks and 3 days gestation!
Way to go Seth. I am so proud of you. People need to take a stand and forcing people to face reality is good. Westmont needs to wake up and promote pro life to the students every year.
I agree that people need to take a stand, but I think you presented it in the wrong way. By presenting it in a harsh way, students are more likely to give you a harsh response. Also, you ARE at a Christian school. Did you know that more people are inclined to believe in the same thing because of that? Most people at this school are Republicans. People being pro life was never an issue, they are more inclined to vote pro life. But by coming out this way, you made it an issue that people think twice about. Especially the way you presented it.
I agree to a certain degree that abortion is wrong. However, do you know more of the main reasons behind abortion? Fear? Judgement? Poverty? Rape is not the only reason. Not wanting the child is DEFINITELY not the main reason. You need to understand that in order for abortion to go away, these issues need to go away.
Personally, I am a female. I know friends who have gotten abortions. As much as I was against their decision, it was THEIR decision. I don’t judge them. And you just added to their judgment. Christians should not judge, they should stand and support. No sin is greater than another and this one is no different. God forgives them, and I hope that by you standing so vehemently against it, you have not forgotten that.
Seth, I don’t know if you know this, but you are a MALE. You stood with two MALES. You did not present this as a female struggle and issue. That was not taken into consideration. This was presented as a male way to control. And I guarantee you, that is a big problem. I agree that issues need to be talked about. But you are a COM major. You should know by now that how an issue is presented will affect how it is received. And you made this issue about you. Another big reason why Westmont students did not receive you well that day. This wasn’t about abortion. It was you. And this blog post just proved that.
I agree. Your group is all males Seth. This only tells me that I will no longer take very seriously any male who tells me how to think regarding issues involving Women’s equality. Now if women were out protesting abortion that I would listen to. As a male, you and I lack the emphatic power needed to understand this multicasted issue. This dosen’t mean we cannot engage in dialogue, but it does mean we need to let women lead us.
So women should not listen to Jesus because he was male???
CommonSense…Jesus was talking about things that apply to all mankind. You’re trying to play the God card. That angers people when it’s used to make them change their mind about a complex issue.
How is this playing the God card? And if you are saying the God card is because Seth and those involved are “passing judgement” then how do you justify your judgement of these men standing for what they believe in…by choice? It seems if you believe in defending choice you must respect all choice. If you believe in compassion or non-judgmental behavior, than you yourself should be compassionate and non-judgmental to these people. You fight for what you believe but so do they.
Note, I have read and re-read everything on this post and not once do I see Seth judging or criticizing or accusing anyone of anything – he is simply showing pictures of innocent victims that are caught in the choice battle – without any choice of theirs.
And for everyone saying this is a ‘fetus’. That argument is extremely stale and has been proven false constantly through unbiased science.
Concerned Westmont Female,
Nobody has ever ended injustice by covering it up. William Wilberforce and Thomas Clarkson used the Brookes diagram to shock people with the reality of the slave trade. (They tried to kill Clarkson.) The abolitionists in America also used shocking images of slavery to win hearts and change minds. (Abolitionists were not popular, especially in the South.) Lewis Hine used pictures of children working in coal mines and textile mills. (People complained about his pictures as well.) Dr. Martin Luther King was successful because his allies in the media captured images of Black men and women being attacked with dogs and water cannons. (They killed him in Memphis.)
All of these reformers were successful because they did exactly what Seth is doing. They exposed injustice (Ephesians 5:11).
Last time I checked, it took a FATHER to create a child, in addition to a woman (the mother). What you are forgetting is that behind every abortion, there is a FATHER who is either grieving, unaware of the baby, or perhaps pressuring or coercing, or even CAUSING an abortion. Case in point, I just saw a another case of a man giving his girlfriend an abortion-causing drug, carrying her to lose her baby w/out consent. Seth has every, EVERY RIGHT to stand up as a MAN and defend the right of a FATHER – of fathers everywhere to mourn and defend lost fatherhood. He has a right to tell men, “This is your issue too. If you don’t care enough, you could lose your child to this horrific procedure. If you don’t stand up, you will never regain your right to fatherhood.” Currently the man has every right (legal) to force a woman to raise her baby by impeding her adoption plan, and yet he has no right to protect his unborn child. How is this right? I find it beyond hypocritical that you Westmont pro-aborts who are attacking Seth can defend world hunger, and yet attack the most basic right – that of life. Try defending the beauty of the sanctity of human life, and not some “choice” that kills another human being.
So, my questions to those who support abortion imagery – exactly how many babies have each of you adopted? at least a dozen, right? And how many teen-age moms have you helped make their way through school? Several hundred I hope. And how many rape victims have you decided to pay their therapy costs?
Because, you are not pro-life, or pro-child, or pro-family by holding some posters and saying hateful words. You become pro-life by insuring that EVERY life – whether it’s a white middle-class life, or an immigrant laborer life – is one filled with love, dignity and an equal chance. And, these pictures – well, they speak nothing of God’s grace and love and mercy. Nor do they do a single thing to make life easier for the thousands of women who chose to raise children on their own.
Please – be pro-life. But remember that being pro-life doesn’t end at birth.
Brekke,
You ask Seth and the rest of used Seth, “Exactly how many babies have each of you adopted? … And how many teen-age moms have you helped make their way through school? … And how many rape victims have you decided to pay their therapy costs?”
So I ask you, “How many battered women have you housed in your home? To how many men are you providing anger-management counseling?” If the answer is zero and zero, then is it OK for you to oppose legalized wife beating?
I cannot believe how insensitive you were. You have no idea what people are going through or why they end at abortion. It hurt so much knowing you had no respect for me or my thoughts and that all you wanted to do was flash images of dead babies around, dehumanizing them. I would never flash images of naked, slaughtered men around campus with their organs hanging out to promote anti-war. That would be utterly insensitive to all the people who are hurting with things related or directly involving this. Do you not see that?
The problem isn’t pro life. I would say almost every person on Westmont campus is pro life. And if someone were ever to consider abortion they would want to talk to someone who would show them both sides and let them decide, not shove their ideas down their throat with crude, dehumanizing images of slaughtered babies.
Your “campaign” (if one can even categorize it as such) did not take into consideration why people abort. Its not actually usually about not wanting the kid. And if it is, they have good reasons most of the time. I don’t think you understand the horrors of adoption and foster care either. When its not about not wanting the kid, it can be about not having the means to support it. Christian organizations that offer help are better than ones who shove “do not abort” down their throat. You say “don’t abort” but you give no other options. You offer no support. You expect this woman to go through the social suicide, physical catastrophes, and personal barriers with no help from you. You tell her what to do with her body but you don’t help her.
By the way, Jesus never did anything like this. He gently helped people, giving advice when asked and where needed. He never shoved anything down their throats. I wish Christians could be more like this. That is how you establish his kingdom, with grace.
and do you not see that you are a MALE! You made this whole thing about YOU. You don’t even have those parts. Would you stop being so arrogant and thinking you’re all righteous because I can tell you now, you have no right, and you are the only one who thinks you are.
Hurt Westmont Student,
Since when did offering opinion and facts in opposition to injustice become insensitive and disrespectful? If that is the standard, then weren’t Jesus, William Wilberforce, Thomas Clarkson, Lewis Hine, and Martin Luther King, Jr. all “disrespectful” and “insensitive.” Did all of them get it wrong?
Yes, you might never need to flash images if war violence around to oppose war, but consider the differences. Nobody questions the humanity of war victims. Nobody believes that war should continue every day from now on. Few people fail to understand the violence of war. And Christian institutions don’t cover up the truth about war (we hope). With abortion, this page offers evidence that Westmont students have little understanding of the humanity of the child, nor the violence of abortion, nor of God’s call on His people to oppose injustice.
Based on the letters above, we can say with certainty that every student at Westmont is not pro-life. We can also observe that very few Westmont students are lifting a finger to oppose the injustice.
Jesus would never be insensitive or do anything like this? Really? What Jesus are you talking about? Jesus frequently resorted to name-calling to describe doers of injustice. Let’s start with Matthew 23. He called them hypocrites (Matt 23:15), child of hell (Matt 23:15), blind guides (Matt 23:16), fools (Matt 23:17), whited sepulchres (Matt 23:27), full of… iniquity (Matt 23:28), serpents (Matt 23:33), generation of vipers (Matt 23:33), and murderers (Matt 23:34). He drove the moneychangers out of the temple with a whip (Mark 11:15-19, John 2:13-16). He warned us all of the coming judgement (Matthew 13:40-42 and too many others to list). I say this without malice (although I will admit to a certain amount of incredulity): if you are a student at a Christian school and you have not been taught about the real Jesus, then I would respectfully submit that something is lacking.
To the Hurt Westmont Student: Again, more shallow thoughts. The horrors of adoption??? The last time I checked, people who were adopted were GLAD that their birthmother chose life – GLAD that they had a family who loved them. While you are right that every adoptive family is not ideal, neither is every biological family, and the “so-called” horrors of adoption are few and far between, and abuse happens far more commonly in biological families than in adoptive ones. It is just that adoptive cases are so widely publicized because it creates so much more sensation and scandal when adoption is involved. So, don’t go knocking adoption. It is a beautiful and courageous, and noble option, and it is a beautiful way to build a family. It is the pro-aborts who try to say adoption is evil because they do not want to think about the fact that there is a real and GOOD and HOLY alternative to abortion. Yes, foster care is not good, but only because our mixed-up government refuses to release these children to be adopted and keeps returning them to the biological family until some of them are permanently damaged or even killed by the abusive biological parents.
When you say “Seth offers no support”; you are wrong. Seth offers support to the other victim of abortion – the unborn, by awakening the obviously dead consciences of the Westmont pro-abortion or “pro-life in name only” or “marginally pro-life” folks. How can you people speak of Jesus’ holy name in one breath, and yet revile and dehumanize the sanctity of human life in another in the name of “choice”?
Another thing: I think that you can agree that there are many ways to bring justice to an issue: there are support groups, there are healing ministries, there are crisis pregnancy centers, and there are prayer vigils and campaigns of awareness. I think you will agree that in the quest to end slavery, there were lectures, books, pamphlets, prayerful protests, as well as actual rescue attempts. There are many, many facets to the pro-life movement, and it sounds as though you needed this kind of approach to awaken your conscience and face the fact that abortion is a GRAVE MORAL evil and injustice – moreso than that of poverty and hunger, because in this case, there is a perpetrator and a victim, and the innocent victim dies. We are co-creators in Christ when we create a child, and outright dismembering a child is a bloody and violent act of murder – an intentional destruction of the perfect creation of God – a rejection of His gift of love to us.
@ Hurt Westmont Student- Wow its all about you! You say, “I cannot believe how insensitive you are”; “You have no respect for me!”;”you have not respect for my thoughts”;”I would never do anything that insensitive to you”- Hurt, I pray that you will get over yourself-admit you are complicit in the murder of GOD’S little ones (by your stumbling blocks and apathy) and pick up your cross and follow thee ONE-Christ Jesus. BTW, Jesus fashioned a whip out of cords and drove the money-changers out of His Father’s house-He also tossed some temple tables- My God is a jealous God-what about yours?
@Leslie Sneddon: IT IS ALL ABOUT THE WOMAN. how dare you. OBVIOUSLY this woman is struggling. this is NOT an easy issue. you have no right to condemn this woman. You know what God also said? Love your neighbor. Love your enemy. Neither of which you are doing. You are too far up your pedestal to realize how you are coming off. I bet you have never been in any position like this. You’ve probably had the perfect life, story, way of coming to God. God works through ANY situation. NEWSFLASH Leslie Sneddon, director of a Pro-life campaign, unwilling to listen to a suffering person: your God, my God, this woman’s God, loves us ALL. Don’t you dare make him out to be judging this woman. He knows her, NOT YOU. and I am thankful for that. Because He knows how to love.
and YES. if there was a woman presenting, it would be received SLIGHTLY better. have you seen the SNL skit about Republican males making tampons? watch it. that’s the issue.
So, if you want a female’s perspective you need look no further than ‘Roe’ who has become a Christian since the legality of abortion. She fights and stands for the unborn every chance she gets. She is willing to have available whatever is necessary (i.e. graphic images) to wake the world up to this awful reality. 50 million abortions!!! The arrogance and selfishness of our world – both men and women. FYI: Roe has admitted to lieing about being raped as her advisors told her the Supreme Court would be more compassionate to her case.
I find it incredible that those reacting to Seth’s NECESSARY stand are crying out for compassion, respect of choice and the desire for a non-judgemental world are lacking so much compassion, so disrespectful of choice, and judgemental towards Seth and ‘images’ while remaining quiet every day as more abortions take place. The hypocricy of intellect.
@Hurt-It doesn’t make any difference whether Seth is a Male or Female. He is standing against a grave injustice-its not based on gender its rooted in seeing another(unborn child) who is made in the image and likeness of God. So would you feel any better if I and a handful of woman came out with the signs? I suspect not. Your issue is the fact that Seth is showing a hard truth and its very uncomfortable for many Christians. For it is time for judgement to begin with the household of God. 1 Peter 4:17
Yes it does matter. It is an issue of women’s rights. Women have babies. Fact.
I agree with A Male…
Want to reach someone? Find someone who has walked in their shoes. You obviously have not. And neither has Seth.
Obviously, you have bought into the pro-abortion rhetoric of the devil. A child’s body is not a woman’s right to destroy at her whim. Only Satan and his followers defend the right to kill a child. Those who love God stand up for the least of these among us who do not have a voice. Seth is following God!
Gender and sexuality-based conversations take a very different tone depending on whom is speaking for whom. While men can be strong supporters and play key roles in gender equality issues, there are instances when it’s more important to give precedence. In issues regarding women’s reproductive health–which includes abortion–it is extremely important to listen to women’s opinions. I would be more willing to engage in this conversation with Seth if he were to provide me with the opportunity to be heard. As things currently stand, he does not seem to be listening or supporting anyone but himself and his male colleagues. For example, I cannot try to pave the way for a conversation about transgender rights. Though I am a supporter of trans* issues, I am not personally trans* and therefore must rely on those who do identify that way to lead me, much in the same way that we, as Christians, are called to follow Christ. While it is easy to judge and condemn others, we are called to follow Christ–to forgive and love even those with whom we can find no stable ground.
So it looks like, along with destruction of the sanctity of human life, you support the destruction of the sanctity of marriage. Try to stay on topic, though. Men have not only a RIGHT but a DUTY to stand up for innocent children being dismembered and tossed in the dumpster. One thing that pro-aborts do NOT deny is that their murderous choice has arms, hands, legs, feet – even hair, and looks remarkably human.
This is disgusting. I am so thankful that WCSA had the foresight to prevent you from showing these images to the larger student body during my time at Westmont. As Hurt Westmont Student said, your scope of view and perspective is so limited in regards to the topic of abortion. So a pregnant teenager doesn’t get an abortion – what then? Yes, there are options for adoption, but do you really think that is feasible for every woman in America? Many women are not even capable of obtaining proper prenatal healthcare for a whole multitude of reasons. Young women who DO go through with the pregnancy often suffer greatly in regards to the social stigma they encounter. It is, frankly, alarming to me at how narrow minded your entire platform is — there is so much in addition to a baby’s life within this issue. In no ways am I disregarding that life (the fact that I even refer to it as a life should tell you something in today’s medical world and culture) – but I am simply raising concern for the other lives involved in this manner.
Seth, do you know the history of every single woman at Westmont college? Do you know if any have had an abortion? Do you know their story? What would have happened if they had told their parents? Were they raped? — Ultimately, you cannot and do not know much, if any, of these facts. Did Jesus publicly confront the woman at the well? No, he reached out to her privately when no one else was at the well. You cannot change the past, and these images could re-open wounds of which you know nothing about. Even the slightest bit of consideration would go a long way in this situation.
Furthermore, you suggest that you are seeking to care for the life of the woman. I would suggest you conduct even just a rudimentary search of the medical literature (PubMed – the Westmont Library has this licensed and ready to go for you) and try to assess the relative risks of carrying a baby to term and an abortion. You will probably be surprised, Seth. Carrying a pregnancy to term, even in today’s modern medical world, is much more dangerous than obtaining an abortion. There is absolutely no correlation between abortions and breast cancer. And abortions do not diminish a woman’s fertility. Caring for the life of the woman is simply an excuse that has no statistical or medical data to back it up. Should abortion become illegal in the United States, then perhaps we could see a reversion to the ‘back alley’ abortions of the past in which a serious threat to the woman’s health is posed. Frankly, though, abortion has been present within the human population for thousands of years (dating back to ancient Egypt – check that out). While I am not denying abortion is wrong, it is a part of human nature, just like sin is for each and every one of us. We cannot dissect sin away from humanity – only Christ can do this. We CAN love each and every person we come in contact with, though. We cannot prevent a fellow human from sinning, but we can pray for them. Our God is not a god of threat and fear – why should our tactics towards our fellow humans (i.e., women seeking abortions) be any different?
Finally, why don’t you channel this zeal and passion into an avenue that actually can (and has been proven) to make real changes. All this time and effort you spend trying to incite righteous rage could be much better spent in the community 1) educating at-risk populations about how to prevent pregnancy 2) raising support and awareness for crisis pregnancy centers or other organizations whose SOLE PURPOSE is to provide care and direction for women experiencing unplanned pregnancies, and 3) actually working to reach out to the women in the community who have had to face challenges greater than you can even know.
I admire your dedication, Seth, but you are a Christian “abortion abolitionist” in a country that cannot and should not be called a Christian nation. As Christians, we are in the minority – much as Jesus was during his time on earth. Did he seek to topple governments and elicit riots? No, the power of His ministry stemmed from his desire and ability to love others, to meet them where they were at, and to show compassion and empathy to those who needed it most. Very few of these characteristics can be seen in your present campaign.
MontAlumMD,
Abortion is killing a living human being. And it’s legal. How can social stigma, or any other reason offered for abortion, justify killing 1.2 million human beings every year.
Let’s apply your argument about “the history of every woman at Westmont” to another context. Would we condemn abolitionists who didn’t know the history and financial circumstance of every single plantation owner? Failure to know personally every plantation owner has nothing to do with the humanity of the Black man nor the morality of slavery; similarly, failure to know personally ever woman has nothing to do with the humanity of the preborn child nor the morality of killing that child.
And how is it loving to cover up the truth? How is it compassionate to let children die, when simply exposing the truth would save so many?
Alum, you apparently want Seth to make the world perfect for everybody before he can advocate for preborn children, who are being killed at the rate of 1.2 million a year. Is that really the best you can do? Your argument is similar to that made by slavery advocates who demanded that all of the economic problems of the South must be solved before anybody could advocate for abolition of slavery. It’s silly.
Mm. Sensitive topic. First impressions: Seth has some real courage. I say that in a value-neutral way, for the moment. Since he’s been campaigning this whole time, he must have had some idea what kind of social ridicule he was up against. I applaud his efforts to raise awareness about this subject–I would have had no idea that there was this much diversity of opinion on campus… it’s good for us to think about this beyond gut reactions.
Ironically, his method is precisely to induce a gut reaction. Naturally, that incites aggression. It touches a nerve, which may open up the conversation, but I think it is less likely that people will take you or your position seriously. Understand that there is complexity to this issue. First off, being pro-life or pro-choice is a completely different topic from whether these images should be allowed to be displayed in front of the DC. What is the purpose of showing them? Is it to persuade people to become pro-life? To get people talking? To draw attention? To shock them into a particular reaction? These are different questions that beg different approaches.
It’s easy for people to get riled up about this, so it’s important to approach sensitively. We should fight for our beliefs and hold strong when we face opposition. But we also need to approach our fellow humans with care, rather than demonizing them. That goes for both Seth and responders. We need to speak with discernment. We need to take care not to be overly sensitive. Most of all, we need to listen for truth. Nothing productive will come of these conversations if we (and by “we”, I mean you and me, not the generic “we” that means everyone else) don’t listen to one another.
Hurt Westmont Student brought up that these images dehumanize the children themselves, and compared it to displaying badly injured or deceased war victims. That’s an interesting comparison. In showing these images, do you abuse the very people you’re trying to protect? Have you considered their rights, other than life?
What are some alternate ways of drawing attention to the issue of abortion? Visual ways, specifically… ways that build a foundation of common beliefs, rather than inviting controversy? Would that be less effective at ____… What IS the goal?
One last thing: Yes, it would be helpful for Seth to have some female representation in a public display like this. But let’s not bash Seth for being male. He can’t help it.
The Anti-Choice Project has already shut down one Planned Unparenthood using graphic signs. I would say that’s a victory for the lives of the unborn!
Shindler’s List was pretty graphic, and yet it made its point well. World War II soldiers could not believe the atrocities they heard of until they SAW with their own eyes, the horrors of the Nazi concentration camps. History books show pictures of dead Jews, tortured, emaciated bodies for us to KNOW that this was, indeed real. History books and films show pictures of the scars and welts on slaves, as well as hangings and their brutalized bodies. If Seth saves even ONE LIFE as a result of these pictures, then they were not shown in vain. It is an irony that you pro-aborts would argue for “permission” from the brutally- killed victims of abortion for use of their photos and yet, you argue most vehemently for the death of these young children in the name of the god “choice”.
People like Seth and Gregg Cunningham are modern day heroes because they are willing to sacrifice their “popularity” to stand up for the truth. Reminds us of people like Jeremiah, or Isaiah, who was sawed in two because people did not like to hear him telling the truth. I’m sorry, the truth does hurt. Chopping up a baby is murder and can never be made right no matter how much we bury our heads in the sand. Our G-d will never condone killing a baby he made, for your own financial reasons. The choice is always present before the pregnancy occurs.
I used to be pompously pro abortion as a student. Since becoming a Christian, and as a mother of two young boys, 8 & 5, I have already shown them CBR’s presentation. My hope is that they will fear G-d enough to never murder my grandchildren. They were not traumatized in the least. Kids are remarkably intuitive and primed to discern truth if only parents would teach them.
By the time kids get to college they have been immersed in Satan’s world view. But it is not too late! Prayers for courage for Seth!
Killing a baby for ‘your own financial reasons’ – there are so many other factors driving women towards abortion. Also, the choice is not ALWAYS present before the pregnancy occurs. This is ignorant and offensive. I know several women who have been raped and that rape has resulted in a pregnancy… some have aborted and others have carried the child. Please show some discretion before you make rash statements in a public forum.
So a child is deemed to be less human because of the circumstances of his or her conception? A violent rape makes it okay to murder the child conceived from that rape? An abortion does not ünrape a mother; in fact, it further violates her and robs her of the ability to heal. Giving birth to the child is very healing. Victims of rape and incest are real people created by God and deserving of our love and compassion, and most of all, deserving of LIFE! There is a LIFE at stake here, and that is what pro-aborts fail to admit. Also, 97% of abortions are committed for the sake of convenience.
It’s a very low standard if all it takes to be a hero is offending people.
It’s very sad if you believe in sacrificing babies to the false god of abortion, or Baal. Read about how people in the Old Testament used to sacrifice their children to their false god Baal by throwing them into the fiery furnace and weep. Whom do you chose to worship? the false god of abortion?
I think that better language can be used for this. I would argue that most people at Westmont are against abortion, and you have created an ingroup/outgroup by saying that there is only “prolife” and “proabortion”. If you want to make a political statement you need to use the right language and respect people that are against abortion, but side politically with a family’s or women’s right to choose.
I also think it would be very helpful for you to look at abortion policies in other countries and the success rates: Ireland and Netherlands are good case studies to look at to see a free abortion policy versus a closed abortion policy. It would also be good to look at what are the negative effects in this country right now since Medicaid does not provide abortion or contraceptive because it is federal funding.
I do not think you have to compromise your faith by participating in a diverse political way, it only get compromised when we choose to not see other sides and see the God that is present regardless of how and who is running our country
By talking about the birthed and unbirthed peoples (self explanatory labeling there), Seth, you essentially take on the voice of the unbirthed to mean any view you already support.
How can there be dialogue, comfort (for those who have lost and those who are losing) and peace if you are constantly subject to the voice of the dead? How can the voice of God show when the the dead are the only ones who get to speak? (Which is interpreted as, if not actually, your own self-insertion.) By assuming your righteousness in your own view, you silence others’ voices for your own moral superiority.
Any view opposite or even neutral to you is not an affliction upon yourself. You instead sully the dead and their voice by assuming that you alone may speak for them, and that they only have one thing to say and one way to say it. This is not the voice of the dead or the living or even of God. It is yours.
What you did took courage, but courage alone is not moral. Many are courageous for all the wrong reasons. Courage is simply acting when one is afraid. It does not say whether the fear is warranted, or the action just.
It pains me that you, a Brother in Christ, would side on the side of rash judgment and perceived persecution over the love of and discussion with your Brothers and Sisters.
Proverbs 3:7
“Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord and shun evil.”
You’ve probably made up your mind about every comment not affirming you here. But I ask you: Are you wise only in your own eyes? Where is the fear of the Lord and fear of the arrogance which separates us from Him?
James 3:13-17
“Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.”
First it is pure. Then it is peace-loving. Then considerate. Then full of mercy. Then impartial. Then sincere.
You are sincere. But you skipped a few steps.
ConcernedFromThe Start,
God’s word demands that we oppose injustice. It’s just that simple. You can start with Proverbs 24:11-12. Also Jeremiah 32:35-36, Jeremiah 19:4-9, Ephesians 5:11, Psalm 106:38-41, Exodus 20:13, James 1:7, Jeremiah 7:1-7, etc.
Hello all. I’ve noticed a recurring theme in most of your comments, and that is the complete focus on the difficulties/needs/circumstances of the woman. I am not saying that we discount those, I am merely suggesting that we care at least as much for the unborn child whose innocent life will be taken through legalized abortion as we do for the woman.
For those of us who are proLife, why would we want to hide the best evidence we have (graphic imagery) that backs up our claim that abortion is indeed and indefensible act of violence which takes the life of an innocent unborn human person. We have no better evidence that abortion is an inhumane act and ought to be outlawed, except the cases of the life of the Mother, which account for less than one percent of all abortions.
We need to stop focusing our complete attention on the feelings of born people that are associated with or merely observing this atrocity and shift our focus and heart toward the little babies who are being ripped apart in their mother’s womb….
Thank you all for the stimulating debate and thoughts.
Part of the difficulty in your argument is that not all people believe a fetus is equivalent to a human life during the developmental stages. I cannot help but wonder if your position as a pro-life advocate is based in imagery or in Scripture; if the former, why not the latter and, if the latter, how does that shape the former? If graphic imagery is your best evidence, why attach Scripture that is ill-suited to that purpose? Additionally, I think that you are lacking in grace for those who disagree with you. I, for one, am still in the process of discerning my opinion in the fetus-or-infant question, but there are hard scientific bases in which a fetus is not equivalent to a functioning human life. While it is noble of you to stake this claim in future generations, it’s important for you to remember that a large part of your controversial statements come from what appears to be your assumption that everyone else also believes fetuses are “babies who are being ripped apart in their mother’s womb” when, in fact, many would not classify fetuses as babies nor would they classify abortion as murder. Using loaded language and phrases (such as ‘babies being ripped apart in their mothers’ wombs’) is not helpful in establishing your position EXCEPT with those who already agree with you. Otherwise, it is a bullying tactic used to guilt people into feeling badly for having their own convictions about this highly controversial issue. Because this is such a complex and grey area, everyone involved in the conversation needs to have grace with those who disagree with them and frankly, you do not appear to allow any grace for people who disagree with you.
How is it grey? Abortion is an intrinsic evil – meaning NEVER morally right, never justifiable. “Fetus”? How about, “In the image of God, He created them, male and female”, and “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. I knit you together in your inmost parts”. I would say that Seth is most DEFINITELY having an effect. He is causing people who are pro-aborts on campus to show that they are not truly Christian because they believe in the murder of the unborn.
seth if graphic imagery is your best evidence, then you need better evidence. Anyone can prove a point with bloody pictures. Or just piss people off, hurt women, and make a portion of the campus unhappy with how this was handled. Which in this case was the latter. YES you have supporters. you will always have supporters on a CHRISTIAN campus. Want to make a difference? Go to an abortion clinic. Don’t go to Reality or Westmont where you will do nothing but hurt people who really do support you.
As to being a modern day hero Jeanine, I beg to differ. His point was not made at Westmont. When you are confrontational about something like that, many aren’t going to “flock” to your side. As for popularity, please. This is not high school. Your true friends are the ones who support you, no matter what. Seth I really do hope your friends support you.
Also, we care about children. Don’t you dare make that assumption that we don’t, because that is untrue. Caitlin is right though, people’s definition of when a fetus becomes a child. Your line though “We need to stop focusing our complete attention on the feelings of born people that are associated with or merely observing this atrocity and shift our focus and heart toward the little babies who are being ripped apart in their mother’s womb” says EXACTLY what you think about the mother. Do you not understand that we need to SUPPORT the mother? Not everyone comes from perfect families who will give support, not everyone has access to resources, not everyone feels they have a choice. And you just cornered them.
I hope you take into consideration the “stimulating debate and thoughts” that you are being presented with. Because from most people’s points of view, you aren’t. Personally, I ask you to please HEAR people, don’t dismiss them since they don’t believe the same as you. Because that is not the way to garner support. That’s a way to ostracize people.
I do stand outside abortion clinics and will continue doing that with members of the right to life club this semester. Notice I said, “our complete attention”. I said that because I whole-heartedly believe that we need to focus on the woman and her needs and circumstances, but we can’t wholly focus on those alone. That is what I meant.
all of that gets lost in your “I can’t believe these are Christians” talk.
Concerned Westmont Female, why so aggressive towards Seth? It sounds like you support Caitlin, who dehumanizes the infant child created in the image and likeness of God by calling that said child a “fetus” – or do you choose to ignore that it is a real person, crying out for our help against this atrocity called, “abortion”? Why can’t you pro-aborts say, “unborn child” rather than “fetus”? Does it make abortion easier to swallow and euphemize when you label it as “choice”instead of “I believe in the death penalty for the unborn”, which is what it is? Why don’t you think that Seth supports the woman? He does. Abortion harms women, and by exposing the evil of it, he saves women from its evil effects. BTW, you seem more concerned with protecting feelings that you do protecting lives. Has it ever occurred to you that an unborn infant is capable of pain and just might want to live? What kind of “choice” do you give to the child? There IS a choice that is humane and loving, noble, and courageous, and that choice is called “adoption” – or had you forgotten about that? Adoption is the loving option.
Concerned Westmont Female,
We don’t condemn anybody who may have had an abortion. God is just as eager to forgive the sin of abortion as he is any other sin. But in order to be forgiven, sin must be confessed and repented of. We partner with many ministries who work to heal abortion-wounded hearts (www.GoDeeperStill.org), but before healing can begin, denial must be overcome.
For those seeking to ignore, trivialize, or even deny the truth about injustice, what is better than a picture? Social reformers like William Wilberforce, Thomas Clarkson, abolitionists in the US, Lewis Hine, and Dr. Martin Luther King all used pictures to help people see truths they were trying desperately to avoid: (1) the victims were real human beings, and (2) the injustice was much worse than people imagined. Were all these guys wrong?
You want Seth to take the pictures to an abortion clinic. Of course, he would love to have you go with him to a clinic and hold up a second sign. But Christian complacency about abortion — complacency about injustice is itself a sin — is not at the abortion clinic; it’s at Westmont College. Of course, not at Westmont College alone, but at just about every “pro-life” church and school in the country. God’s people must be taught not to kill their own children. They must also be shown their responsibility to expose evil and oppose injustice.
You apparently don’t like what Seth is doing to stop abortion. Fine. But what are you doing? You say mothers need our support, and you are correct! What are you doing to support mothers? Are you giving even $100 or $25 or even $10 a month to a local crisis pregnancy center? Are you volunteering a few hours a week?
Yes, everybody doesn’t have a perfect family, but even people who don’t have perfect families deserve to know the truth about abortion. Even people who have imperfect families don’t want the burden of guilt from having killed their own children. Every time the pictures are shown, they help people know the truth. Many babies have been saved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNmCtv-fCfM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Rk44gn824
Again I pose the questions to you – how many babies are you raising? How many teen-age mothers are you sheltering? How many rape survivors are you ensuring are getting therapy? Because THESE become the things that are neglected. Unless you are equally protesting that we have free/truly affordable healthcare for ALL children (and people, really) in this country, you are not pro-life, you are pro-fetus. Unless you are protesting with the same passion for better educational systems, then you are not pro-life you are pro-fetus. And unless you are working in the state of California to help fix the problem of food deserts (seriously, read up on it, it’s horrible), you are not about ensuring the dignity of life, you are merely concerned with fetuses.
Now, if you start getting passionate about the whole course of human life – not just the 9 months leading up to birth, then I can take your point of view more seriously. Until you’ve shown a consistent life ethic, however, you have no grounds – religious or otherwise – to protest. All you are doing is hate-mongering, not working to solve what is a complex and challenging issue.
I pray the the Spirit help you to see how wide this issue runs, how much work there is to do so that we may ensure each of God’s children lives with dignity, and how the hard work of loving your neighbor does not being in protest, but in support and encouragement.
Blessings,
Brekke
Brekke,
You asked Seth, “Again I pose the questions to you – how many babies are you raising? How many teen-age mothers are you sheltering? How many rape survivors are you ensuring are getting therapy?”
So I ask you, “How many battered women are you housing in your home? To how many men are you providing anger-management counseling?” If the answer is zero and zero, then is it OK for you to oppose legalized wife beating?
Seth, time to stop there and read the statement of Physicians for Life, stating that it is NEVER necessary to intentionally destroy the life of a child to save the life of a mother – NEVER. This has been totally fabricated by pro-aborts. It is never SAFER to intentionally destroy a child than it is to have a cesarean or to give birth, but read the statements by Physicians For Life that gives medical fact to this statement. Also, time to read up on Father Frank Pavone’s website, Priests for Life, in which he argues that the doctor must always try to preserve the life of the child and should do nothing which endangers the child’s life. We have become so accustomed to this argument that we fail to really think about it any more, and yet, would you rush into a burning house to try to save your child? Would you run in front of a semi-truck barreling down the street to save your child? Would you risk drowning to save your child? If you didn’t what kind of grief would you live with for the rest of your life – that you watched with sad eyes and stood by and did NOTHING to try to save your child? A man saved a 3 month-old baby at Walmart when there was a tornado, by covering the baby’s body with his own, risking his own life. This was a perfect stranger. Perfect strangers risk their lives to save people. There is no greater love than to give your life for that of a friend. I think the mother’s own unborn child could certainly be called her friend. So many times when she does risk her life for her unborn baby, the mother ALSO lives, to the surprise of the doctor, but if she does die, don’t you think that God will still protect and take care of her child, her husband, and her family? He doesn’t stop caring for people in a case like this, you know. True faith in God means believing that if we are dying, or if we are risking our life for another person’s sake, that we trust in God to take care of our loved ones on earth. We will all die at some point, and would we rather die with the guilt and sin of abortion on our conscience or would we rather die knowing that we had heroically given our life for that of our child? St. Gianna Berretta Molla, an Italian physician who gave her life for her unborn child told her husband, “If it comes to it, save the life of the child, I demand it”, and she sacrificed her life for that of her child. That child, Gianna Emmanuella, is now a physician who treats Alzheimer’s patients. That child’s life has an important purpose, destined by God, and who are WE to play God and say that it is the child who must die when God has decided otherwise? A priest once said, “The mother should ALWAYS do everything to protect her unborn child. If it comes to it, she should ALWAYS choose the life of her baby over that of her own. It is what God wants her to do”.
Seth, you are bold, which is a gift. But there are only two issues here. 1) We have no decision-making power in others’ choices. Free will is something that God has given to people, and no one can infringe on that. Yes, there is injustice in the world and we need to fight that, but we start by being what we want to see in the world. Seth, I don’t think you understand how small of an impact your actions made on anyone except for yourself.
2) There’s a lot of controversy on what God would want or would have us do, or what would Jesus do. I think God wants all fetuses to grow into healthy functional adults. But they don’t, and it’s not just because of abortions. Miscarriages, genetic fallacies that cause death shortly or some time after birth, abusive situations that end in a death of the fetus. The world we live in is corrupt which means that sin and evil wins the small battles of today, and Jesus wins the larger battles of today and largest battle at the end. Westmont is not your enemy, and if you changed your position to one that advocates For something rather than against you would see that. One thing I would love to see is advocacy for pro-life for fetuses diagnosed with Down’s Syndrome since statistically over 90% of them get aborted. This is definitely an area where lack of knowledge can cause someone to not even consider life and choose abortion. Yes, all life is precious, but what is lost we cannot save and telling people who have already had abortions that they are murderers is not what Jesus would have done. Jesus came to save those people who got lost and made the wrong decisions, and he came to save the future groups of people who Will get lost and Will make wrong decisions. Telling people that abortion is murder in that it ends a life is true, but it is not truth spoken in love and so it can only cause destruction.
God commanded us to love Him and love others and below is a link that I think summarizes how best to do this (it’s only a couple minutes long).
https://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=C9111NNU
I’m not condemning you, but I hope that you find the good to fight for instead of fighting your fellow believers and harming yourself in the process.
Eliana,
I just want to say that your lovingly articulated pro-life stance is EXACTLY what I’m talking about! We need more folks who are pro-life to understand the complexity of the issue, and to emulate Jesus by reaching out in love.
I myself am pro-choice unequivocally and am a sexual assault (although, thankfully not rape) survivor. My frustration with many pro-life advocates has been that they dehumanize their opponents, and that being pro-life really means being pro-fetus. There isn’t the same zeal and fervor to insure that all babies get access to healthcare, or education. That kind of judgmental hypocrisy is really frustrating to see.
Emotionally damaging those that you disagree with is not the message of grace we read in the bible. Christ is the one who advocates on behalf of the adulterous woman, saving her from the death penalty. Jesus is the one who welcomes the tax collector, who had used his power and influence to oppress his fellow Jews. Jesus is the one who reminds us that just because we legalistically follow the letter of the law, it doesn’t mean we’re living the Spirit of God’s message for us (the Good Samaritan parable). We must love God with our hearts and souls and mind, and love our neighbors as ourselves (Mathew 22) Creating and “us vs them” mentality over such an important issue does nothing to help any party – not women in crisis situations, not babies, not outside observers.
Thank you for your loving response. I hope that touch the life of a woman in crisis, and that you love helps to soften hearts and glavinize communities to take care of struggling families. Indeed, that is where we truly become Christ’s hands and feet.
Blessings,
Brekke
Brekke,
You asked Seth, “Again I pose the questions to you – how many babies are you raising? How many teen-age mothers are you sheltering? How many rape survivors are you ensuring are getting therapy?”
So I ask you, “How many battered women are you housing in your home? To how many men are you providing anger-management counseling?” If the answer is zero and zero, then is it OK for you to oppose legalized wife beating?
Brekke, your words about Jesus ring false when you pray to the false god of “choice”, which results in the bloody death of an innocent child. Not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord will enter into my kingdom, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven”. Are you doing the will of God to stand up for the “right” to destroy innocent living human beings created in God’s image and likeness?
Eliana,
As Christians, we are commanded to defend the defenseless and to expose the deeds of darkness. There are many examples of God confronting His people with their sin, usually through people acting in obedience to God’s Word. In most cases, they didn’t like it because there was rebellion in their hearts. But the command to expose injustice is not conditional on the willingness of evil-doers to accept the message. You are correct that Seth cannot infringe on the free will of others, but he can obey God’s command to be a voice for the defenseless and to expose evil. He can appeal to Christians’ sense of justice and mercy.
If you cringe at my calling the good people at Westmont “evil-doers,” then consider the facts. One in five abortions are conducted on women who identify themselves as “born-again” or “evangelical” Christians. That’s about 250,000 babies being killed in the evangelical Church alone, not counting those killed by Catholics who might not identify themselves in those terms. The “pro-life” church is doing almost nothing to stop the killing within its own walls, much less in the culture. In fact, the faculty and administration at Westmont appear to be working very hard to cover up the truth of abortion, leaving students without the truth they need to resist the lies of Satan. There is great evil being done because of this coverup.
Yes, because we and all of creation is under the curse, people do die of “natural” causes, as you have enumerated. That doesn’t give any of us the right to kill another person. God’s people are commanded not to murder. It is an abomination.
We hope you are correct that Westmont is not Seth’s enemy. We’ll see. However, if their complacency about abortion allows babies to die that could have been saved, then Westmont has made itself the enemy of those children.
To say that Jesus would not confront sin is to describe a Jesus I am unfamiliar with. Jesus even resorted to name-calling to describe doers of injustice. Let’s start with Matthew 23. He called them hypocrites (Matt 23:15), child of hell (Matt 23:15), blind guides (Matt 23:16), fools (Matt 23:17), whited sepulchres (Matt 23:27), full of… iniquity (Matt 23:28), serpents (Matt 23:33), generation of vipers (Matt 23:33), and murderers (Matt 23:34). He drove the money-changers out of the temple with a whip (Mark 11:15-19, John 2:13-16). He was plenty confrontational; that is why they crucified Him.
Seth never called women murderers, nor would I. Women are also victims. They are being told nothing but lies about the baby and about abortion by the culture, and the silence of the “pro-life” church leaves them vulnerable to those lies. The greater share of guilt must belong to the “pro-life” churches/institutions who refuse to warn their own people to avoid this terrible evil.
And how can it be that simply showing people the truth is “unloving?” In order to love the drunk driver, must we quit running “Don’t drink and drive” commercials?
Unlike drunk driving, people don’t really know that abortion’s victims are human beings and that the act of abortion is a horrifying act of violence. People need to see those truths so that they can think clearly to avoid killing their own children. Lives are at stake. If your born child were about to die, how far would you want Seth to go to save your own baby’s life? Would it be too much for him to hold up a sign warning you of the danger? Would that be “unloving?”
For more on the complacency of the “pro-life” church, please read this letter I wrote to Liberty University last year: https://www.prolifeoncampus.com/libraries/tiny_mce/tinymce/plugins/filemanager/files/Open%20Letter%20to%20Liberty%20University.pdf
You are wrong to compare abortion to miscarriage and imply that it is the same thing. Abortion is the willful, intentional dismemberment of a live baby, and is a heinous act – gravely immoral. Miscarriage is the natural death process of an unborn child, and often the baby is birthed at home, but also may morally be removed surgically or through labor induction. God does not love nor will the first, but does will the second. Eliana, God DOES want us to try to influence others to try to defend and protect life, and that is exactly what Seth is doing. Eliana, you are right about babies with Down Syndrome being ruthlessly aborted, and that is a tragedy, and perhaps God is convicting YOU to join this specific fight. There is a website called “Be Not Afraid” that tells the stories of parents who chose life for their unborn baby when given a bad prenatal diagnosis. Why do you not join this cause or start one of your own? Don’t criticize Seth for taking a bold and loving stance by increasing public awareness of the humanity of the unborn and this grave evil done unto them. This is where and how he feels convicted to participate in the pro-life movement. There is room for everyone in the pro-life movement, and there are peaceful and prayerful ways to get involved, such as 40 Days for Life, helping Planned Barrenhood workers transition out of the abortion mill industry, (And Then There Were None) – Abby Johnson’s ministry, Priests for LIfe, Project Rachel for healing post-abortive women, Right to Life for the political arm, etc, etc.
@Concerned Westmont female- I want to say I did NOT have a perfect life. I know how a woman feels when deciding to kill her child. I made that excruciating decision FOUR times in my life. Nobody told me who was growing inside of me-nobody bothered to get involved in finding another way-My boyfriends, family just opened wide the gates of hell and just allowed me to walk in. If men like Seth were around to show me the truth, I would have “chosen” to give life to my four babies.
Show that truth. Show it in a loving way. Dead baby pictures aren’t always the way.
You and every other woman is forgiven. But since you HAVE had that experience, you should be sympathetic to those women. Not condemning. Which is how you come across. As well as Seth.
Please understand, most of the people here are PRO LIFE. Ok? We disagree with how it was PRESENTED. There’s a difference.
the dead baby pics have a purpose: to uncover a two-fold injustice; against, and depending on the circumstance by, the mother, and against the baby. it ‘s not just a dead baby picture, remember.
Pro-life as in how? What are YOU doing to stop the killing of millions of innocent babies? Seth is DOING something. What are you doing? Are you the type of “pro-life” person who votes for Obama, the most pro-abortion president ever, are are you the type of pro-life person who prays at 40 Days for Life in front of Planned Barrenhood and fasts and sacrifices for the unborn, and tries to elect pro-life leaders such as Romney/Ryan? What are YOU doing to defend the lives of the innocent? We will all have to answer to God for the lives of these children and what we did to try to protect them. What will YOUR answer be in the final judgment? I can pretty well guess that God will say to Seth, “Well, done, faithful servant”. What will He say to YOU?
Seth, you are naive. Abortion is a very complicated issue, and you don’t have all the information necessary to effectively reach out to most women. Your posters are beyond offensive to 20% of the women in the US because they are a reminder of the death of their beloved and dearly wanted baby. 20% of the women you talk to today will suffer a spontaneous abortion. Their lost baby will look like the images on your posters, which I doubt you have had the misfortune to see in person in the toilet bowl or in your underwear. The women who see those images will only be thinking of their own lost baby, or their lost sibling. It will be a reminder of a desperate attempt to save a life, a bloody medical procedure, and a tragic death and your point will be totally lost in their grief. In fact 75% of fertilized eggs will not survive long enough to implant, and 30% of implanted eggs will not result in a live birth. Being a woman is a messy and scary business sometimes, and until you can find another less violent way to get your point across, women are going to tune you out and turn away in disgust.
Jesus himself showed compassion to the “unclean woman” in Mark 5:23-34. Try to follow Jesus.
we will have more compassion on women when abortion is once again made illegal, now a huge priority is to update our laws by public awareness that abortion, like slavery once, is still legal.
You need to have compassion NOW, regardless of abortion’s legal status.
we can have compassion for a woman who aborts, but how does that equally translate to the child?
I think that Seth has all of the information that he needs: abortion destroys an innocent life.
Just the fact that Gruber is being attacked, proves how far Christians have turned from the heart of God. Those who should have been his advocates, have become his opposition.
Other Christians may not agree exactly with the way Gruber is doing things, but at least he’s doing something! And it’s not like using graphic imagery is the only way he fights (or has fought) against abortion; just ask him.
I wish people would see that USING GRAPHIC IMAGERY IS A LAST RESORT. If nice little dialogue showed people the evils of abortion and spurred Christians on to obey God and work to abolish it, that would be wonderful…seriously, people (including Gruber) have tried it. But the truth is, it is not working. Those things have been tried time and time again and are mostly failing – do the research (instead of emotionally spouting out opinions not based on reality).
Images are powerful. For example, women who see an ultrasound of their baby are less likely to get an abortion. That’s one of the things PRC tries to make available. But not all women take that opportunity – not all women understand that the fetuses inside their wombs are human. Maybe many who oppose Gruber know that – but lots of women don’t. Using graphic imagery may be the only means to reach them. Using graphic imagery, like Gruber is doing, is simply one means of many to reach women. Different people are reached in different ways.
Can’t people set aside their offense for the sake of the women who needs to see those pictures to make the choice to save her baby?
And if a woman wanted to talk with Gruber about a previous abortion, I know that he would be gracious and loving and point them to the Savior – the forgiver of sins. He’s obviously not going to sugar-coat things, but neither did Christ. I’m sure the images are extremely disturbing to women who’ve had abortions. But that is the reality of what they have done – that cannot be denied. They have to come to terms with the ugliness of their sin (we all do with regards to any sin) and turn to Christ.
It is a tragedy that most of us (i.e. Christians in general) do absolutely nothing to save the children being slaughtered every day. (In fact, it’s estimated that 1 out of 5 abortions are done by women who claim to be Christians.) If we really understood God’s heart, how could we just stand by? Yahweh, the God who cares about the oppressed, has convicted me through Gruber’s faithfulness to Him. I’m seeking God on how He wants me to be a part.
Praise Jesus for men like Seth Gruber. Men who actually follow God’s heart to expose injustice and fight for the innocent.
Wow! Praise God for your newfound convictions! 40 Days for Life is a great way to get involved. If you want to get involved w/ the Anti-Choice Project, that is another way. There are lots of healing ministries too. Check out Priests for Life more more ways to get involved!
can a just society allow the legal killing of its children?
a child is defined as a person from birth until full growth. What you are trying to say is “can a just society allow the legal killing of a fetus?”
And that is where the debate is.
how do you define a person? is your definition broad or narrow?
There really is no debate at all. It’s a human, it’s alive, and it’s how we ALL began. How about, “Can a just society allow the legal killing of its people?”
Amen! Love that comeback! The truth is that our society and our churches have lost their conscience.
Way to rock the complacency, Seth.
For my part, I’ll start listening to your naysayers when they knock off with thinking their “oooh, icky, so vile of you to do this!” crap is the moral high ground, and the slaughter of 60 million unborn humans in America alone is an “emotional” issue of concern only to the intellectually unfortified.
None of the arguments arrayed against you here matter, Seth. Each person triangulating against you seems to believe that the personal is the political. Well then — that sword has two edges. Carry on. Those whose voices have been marginalized — yours, but more importantly the unborn — are not obliged to give a hearing to the enemies of life, nor the false flags who speak of “complexity” as if their arguments themselves were simple enough that your silence should be the most obvious outcome.
Screw ’em. As long as the unborn are relegated to these people’s scrap heap — screw ’em.
You’re kinder and more patient than I, though. 🙂
Wow…some very angry, unhappy young women at Westmont that posted here. Calm down, calm down. Nice job Seth, may the Lord be with you.
Proud of you, man.
Dear Christians,
I am truly shocked at the response to Seth’s actions. So many offended people!
“Great peace have they which love thy law; and nothing shall offend them.” Psalm 119: 165 King James Version
You have exposed yourselves!
Seth, Keep running the race, pressing on towards the prize (everlasting life with Christ). From what I see and read and hear in scripture, Jesus was pretty “radical.” He was unwanted in His own hometown. In the end, He was tortured for the things He said and did. People literally hated Him for the truth He spoke. If I personally am not being persecuted, then maybe I need to be looking harder at my life and how I’m living it for Him.
Sincerely,
Tina
I cannot for the life of me understand people offended by truth. It is a picture that is REAL. That is what happens every day, every hour, every minute.
Keep the good work, Seth!! God bless your efforts in defending the voiceless…
*Clarification in regards to Westmont College and Pro-Life: While I do believe with what most have said, that Westmont is predominately pro-life, I believe we need to define terms due to how emotionally charged this issue becomes.
For example, I have run into and spoken to ALOT of people at Westmont who upon further questioning admit to being personally opposed to abortion, but don’t believe we have the right to tell other women they can’t get abortions, or that it needs to remain their choice. This is tantamount to saying that one is personally opposed to slavery but that their neighbor should have the right to own as many slaves as he/she wants, and that they certainly wouldn’t hold that right from them.
This is a misunderstanding of views, in fact they are two contradictory view points being held at the same time…. If abortion is wrong, then it is wrong objectively, and we cannot fall into such intellectual dishonesty by only being personally pro-life.
So when people say in response to what I’m doing, that Westmont is already mainly pro-life, I must clarify that a large percentage of those people that are Pro-life are in fact “personally” pro-life, which is functionally no different from being pro-abortion.
Lastly, if westmont is truly predominately pro-life, then what are they doing against abortion?
I love this college, and that’s why I want us to have a gospel-centered response to the abortion issue that says: “What can we do?”
I’m a 40-something yr old mom and I so encouraged by your stance & commitment to helpless people whose lives are being unjustly ended on a daily basis. I pray the Lord gives you wisdom, discernment & His strength to continue!! I agree that being pro-life cannot be just a personal thing… it’s collective justice for generations of mankind! I can relate to this issue because I experienced an unplanned pregnancy 17 years ago and was encouraged by the Dr. to go across the street to a PP for an abortion. Though I was overwhelmed with panic, worry & shame, and thought for a moment that it could be an “easy” solution, I realized that it would be totally wrong to take the life of an innocent person already forming inside. I can’t tell you how thankful I am in having made the right choice. This is not to glorify myself or condemn those who chose otherwise. God’s grace & mercy were so amazing and life-changing to me during that time. Ultimately, I made the extremely difficult decision to place my sweet baby daughter for adoption. It’s not always been an easy journey, but I know my daughter’s life is so precious and purposeful…and I believe she is thankful to be alive!
Thank you again for being a “visual voice” for those who are helpless, especially in a place where you can make such an impact. I will pray for you and for your campus – the students and the officials. I pray the Lord will open many doors for you and this cause so close to His heart. I pray that any students there who face an unplanned pregnancy will bravely choose life for the unborn person inside them, knowing that EVERY life is valuable in God’s eyes.
Blessings!!
P.S. Can you organize a campus viewing of October Baby? Awesome movie!!
I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that nazi Germany and abortions have very little to do with one another.
Responding to Kyle McRuer,
There are many similarities between abortion and the Nazi Holocaust.
1. In both cases, rights of personhood have been denied the victim class. In Germany, it was a judicial decision by the Reichsgericht in 1936. In the US, Roe v. Wade legalized abortion in 1973.
2. In both cases, the perpetrators have used dehumanizing language to justify their actions. Nazis called their victims rats, pigs, vermin, untermensch (subhuman), etc. In the US, WANTED preborn children are routinely called “babies.” However, UNWANTED perborn children are never called babies, but are instead called products of conception, mass of cells, blob of protoplasm, “potential” life, etc. Even though embryo and fetus are medical terms that define age — so are infant, adolescent, and teenager, by the way — they are often used in ways that incorrectly suggest something less than human.
3. In both cases, the perpetrators believed that what they were doing was actually good for society.
4. In both cases, the victims had something that was wanted by those in power, or the vicitms simply got in the way. Jews got in the way of a racially pure society. Eastern Europeans had lebensraum (living space) that the Nazis wanted for the German people. Unplanned babies get in the way of career development, acquisition of material wealth, maintenance of lifestyle, etc. They get in the way of sex without responsibility.
5. Victims have been spoken of as a disease on society or diseased themselves. Nazis described Jews and others as “parasites” and “bacilli”. In his medical textbook Abortion Practice, Warren Hern analogizes the unwanted preborn child to a disease, the treatment of choice for which is abortion.
6. In both cases, the perpetrators have asserted that resources are inadequate to care for the victim class, if they were allowed to live. Nazis called their victims “useless eaters.” Pro-aborts awfulize the birth of unplanned children by saying that nobody will take care of all of them and that their presence will endanger the planet.
7. Genocide is often framed in the language of “choice.” The Nazis asserted that the make-up of the German nation was an internal matter for the German people to decide. Abortion advocates argue that abortion should be a matter of “choice.”
Yes, there are many similarities that can help us put this present version of genocide in it’s proper perspective.
This constitutes very little. You’re grasping at straws to produce some pretty shameful fear mongering.
At Subway, I have to stand in line and wait before I can receive my sandwich just like Jews had to line up for the gas chambers. The employees at Subway who enforce this policy wear uniforms. You know who else wore uniforms? That’s right. Nazis.
I have outlined some vague similarities between waiting in line for a meatball sandwich and the Holocaust. Does it actually make sense for me to compare these two things? Not really. The only reason you can get away with it is because abortions and the Holocaust can both be categorized as unpleasant whereas getting a sandwich is delightful.
The Holocaust was an attempt at the systematic extermination of an entire ethnic group. No one is blaming our nation’s problems on evil unborn babies. No one is rounding them up to be maliciously slaughtered for the glory of America. No one is barging into houses looking for hidden fetuses to take away and kill.
Young women, often under great emotional distress, are making the difficult and tragic decision to have abortions. If you want to prevent that you are going about it completely the wrong way. You are using some extremely nebulous similarities between the Holocaust and abortion to provoke the knee jerk fear that some kind of new Nazi Germany is rising up in America. This couldn’t be further from the truth and it’s really an awful method. Godwin’s law all up in here.
That all being said, your points are all either really weak or flawed. I don’t have the time to go through them at the moment. I’m really hungry for a meatball sandwich all of a sudden.
Responding to Kyle McRuer:
If you have something to say, please don’t insult this forum with a discourse on uniforms, standing in line, etc. If you truly believe that preborn human beings are not human, then may I suggest that you consult a medical school textbook on embryology. Any will do. If you believe that it is OK to kill some groups of human beings, which apparently you do, then please explain how you draw the line between who may be killed and who may not.
Yes, of course the motivations and methods for killing preborn children is different from the motivations and methods for killing Jews and Eastern Europeans. Preborn children are brought individually to killing centers because they are unwanted. Jews and Eastern Europeans were brought in cattle cars to killing factories because they were unwanted. Baby killers use suction machines. Nazis used bullets and gas. The motivations and methods are different, but either way, the victims are just as dead.
Perhaps Adolf Hitler said it best: “As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.” May Seth’s potent words similarly echo inside your heart, soul and mind as you continue to live the pure and righteous lives God has set forth for you.
What.
I’d like to point out, since no one else has affirmed her in this, that Caitlin directly quoted the portion of the Westmont student handbook that Seth violated. For me, this is the crux of the debate about this event; Seth, why are you paying $50,000 a year to go to an educational institution with a policy for student conduct (which you signed off on when you started paying tuition) you don’t want to follow?
In fact, I am not breaking any school standards, expectations, or community life statements. I went through all those to make sure I wasn’t violating any rule and furthermore, if I was, then why hasn’t Westmont stopped me / had public safety remove me? And why did Stu Cleek and Angela D’amour tell me that I did have the right to hold the signs on campus? hhhmmm.
As I stated before, our Student Handbook (https://www.westmont.edu/_student_life/student_handbook/index.html) has some very clear policies about conduct. In the Community Life Statement (https://www.westmont.edu/_student_life/student_handbook/community-standards.html), all Westmont students agreed that they would not abuse the Student Conduct Process, which includes “Any form of abuse of the student conduct process in and of itself is considered a serious concern for the community. Some abuses of the student conduct process include, but are not limited to:
Falsification, distortion, or misrepresentation of information;
Filing a complaint knowingly without cause;
Attempting to discourage an individual’s proper participation in the process;
Attempting to influence the impartiality of a participant;
Harassment (verbal or physical) and/or intimidation of a participant;
Failure to comply with the sanction(s) imposed.”
I have already outlined the ways in which you have violated these particulars.
You are also “required to comply with the direction of college officials or Public Safety officers acting in the performance of their duties,” which includes being asked by, in your words, “the Westmont powers that be” to stop your so-called protest. You have “disrupt(ed) and interfere(d) with the right of other students, faculty [and] staff to participate in the educational program and/or perform duties imposed by the college; disrupt(ed) the normal operations of the college and infringe(d) on the rights of other members of the college community.” You have been asked to be aware of offensive and obscene content and to “refrain from conduct that is offensive to others, lewd or indecent. Such conduct includes, but is not limited to, streaking and profane or obscene expressions or speech that violate accepted standards of decency and Christian conduct. Discretion should also be exercised regarding videos, periodicals and posters.”
Then your argument is not with me, but with the student life office and the administrators of the college who aren’t requiring that i stop.
Responding to goingpostale:
How can it be that showing a photo is disruptive? How could it possibly interfere with the ability of people to go to class or attend any other educational program at Westmont? What rights were infringed upon? If abortion is such a great thing to do, how can a picture of it be offensive? If abortion is just a medical procedure, how can a picture of it be obscene?
The Bible (Romans 13:1-5) calls us to respect authority. It makes no distinctions about whether or not that authority chooses to enforce its own rules. You broke them. Yes, I also question why Westmont staff backed off when they asked you to end your demonstration, however that does not absolve you of your disregard for the rules you agreed to follow when you became a student at Westmont. I completely support your right to hold your opinion, to discuss it openly and freely, to be respected and treated as a dignified human being. But I also believe a condition to that right is to demonstrate integrity; integrity means standing by your word. The moment you signed the student life policy you promised to follow it. Your reaction to Stu Cleek and Angela D’amour is clearly not in line with your previous promise. I don’t know how to say it any more plainly.
Grace, I hope that you apply this same sort of fervor towards abortion as you do towards interpretation of a handbook, that by the way, you have no authority over. You need to recognize that you are placing your own perspective on what the handbook means all the while Westmont has clearly chosen their stance on interpretation of the handbook – and they do have authority as it relates to that.
Can you please point out what handbook rules Seth has broken, please? I am interested in learning more.
Many of the Westmont students appear to be in favor of killing tiny children in the womb. The people who are defending Seth do not appear to be Westmont students. It would appear that Seth’s awareness campaign was badly needed. How sad that a so-called “educated” college student can not see the parallels between Adolf Hitler and Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Unparenthood. They were friends, you know, and Margaret espoused many of Hitler’s eugenic beliefs. In fact, contraception was first targeted at Blacks, and reducing the “unfit”, the “poor”, and the “socially undesirables”. If you question this, read Margaret Sanger’s book yourself. Also, start researching the connection of Margaret Sanger to the Eugenics Movement. Planned Barenhood continues to celebrate Margaret Sanger, and has never renounced any of her beliefs! Dear pro-“choice” folks, time to hold some “choices” in your arms and realize that these are actual people who are being denied the basic right to life – an inherent right endowed by our Creator – NOT man (or woman!). No PERSON endows another person with life; rather God endows us with life, and it is not up to another PERSON to take away someone’s inherent life. Read your Declaration of Independence! Read Jeremiah in the Bible. How can you so-called Christians be defending murder? Watch and study an actual abortion procedure and what happens to the child during it, and then see if such a thing is a “choice” or if it is a brutal murder of an innocent life. Dr. Bernard Nathanson has given an explicit step-by-step view of abortion on You tube. Also, there is a physician who gave a recent testimony in front of congress of what happens during a second trimester abortion. It is an unemotional, graphic verbal, medical testimony. It is available on Lifesite News. You pro-abortion Westmonters are forgetting that God has given His blessing to ADOPTION – a loving and compassionate, and noble, self-sacrificing choice, but NOT to killing, except in self defense. Last time I checked, no baby in uterero was holding her mother at gunpoint.
I’m so, so sorry that Margaret Sanger made affordable and legal birth control possible. Maybe you’re married, Julie, and your husband likes to use the occasional condom. Or maybe you’ll one day be married and would like to have sex during a time when you don’t want a child, so your local Planned Parenthood will provide you with affordable birth control pills. How dare Margaret Sanger want to educate people about sex and stop women from inserting bent coathangers into their vaginas in order to end their pregnancy! How dare Margaret! The outrage!
Yes, her views on eugenics sucked. I can read books, too, Julie. She espoused a lot of negative views. She was also very, very racist—just like the guy who wrote the Declaration of Independence.
But do you know what Planned Parenthood is not involved in? EUGENICS OR RACE.
But, really—
Did you seriously just compare Adolf Hitler to Planned Parenthood, which is one of the leading healthcare centers for women in our country? Did you seriously just compare Adolf Hitler to an institution which has some of the ONLY affordable women’s health care in our country, and whose services are 35% STD/STI treatment, 35% contraception services, 16% cancer screening and prevention, 10% for other women’s health services, 3% abortion services, and 1% other services?
Did you seriously just compare Adolf Hitler to this program? It’s okay if you want to stop that 3% of abortion services. That ain’t my beef, Julie. But first you need to figure out what Planned Parenthood ACTUALLY DOES FOR WOMEN before you go and try scaring everybody with your “Planned Barrenhood” tactics (there’s another ‘r’ in there, Julie. Looks like I really am educated!)
We are educated, Julie. The students here know what an abortion is, and they know what it looks like. If someone is anti-war, they don’t protest war by standing outside veterans’ households and holding up signs with graphic pictures of bodies mutilated by bombs.
What if I told you that I am pro-life, but I also told you that comparing Planned Parenthood to the systematic atrocities committed against Jews during WWII is one of the stupidest, most insensitive, most propagandist, most laughably uneducated things I’ve ever heard?
Regardless of what you or I believe (and consider, for a moment, Julie, that maybe we are on the same side) abortion IS NOT GENOCIDE. Please, for your own sake, and for the sake of pro-life activists who actually know how to protest abortion, look up genocide in a dictionary and look at the history of genocide in our world. Genocide is murder but murder does not necessarily equal genocide, so you should probably work on your vocabulary.
Lastly, Julie, this is not an awareness campaign. This is a “look at Seth Gruber” campaign. Guess what students are debating on campus? Not abortion. We do that well enough on our own, thanks (shocker: we’re educated on the subject). Instead, we are debating Seth Gruber’s methods, his INCREDIBLY elitist, sexist tone in ALL of his blog posts, and whether or not he’s liking all the attention he’s gotten.
From what I’ve seen so far—yeah, he’s a fan.
Educated (?) Westmont Student,
Planned Parenthood uses funny accounting when they claim that only 3% of their services are abortions. I’m surprised that an educated person would take their claim at face value, without digging deeper. You can calculate the 3% figure only by saying that a routine service like handing a pack of pills to a patient and equivalent to performing invasive surgery; in other words, each patient encounter is counted as “one service,” no matter how big or small. An educated person might figure out that services as divergent as these examples are simply not equivalent. As it turns out, Planned Parenthood derives about 14% of their income from abortions, not 3%.
Actually, people protest war with photos of war violence all the time. There is no need to do it in public, because there are many media outlets more than willing to publish photos of war violence. Furthermore, nobody is confused about the humanity of the victims of war violence nor the horrific nature of the violence itself. On the other hand, many people are confused about the humanity of the preborn child and the inhumanity of abortion.
If you told us that you are “pro-life,” then it is obvious you mean something entirely different from what we mean when we use the term. We mean that each act of abortion kills a living human being who is equally in value to you or any one of us.
Regarding the comparison of Planned Parenthood to Nazis, here are some facts you cannot deny:
First, Planned Parenthood systematically terminates living human beings because they are unwanted. Do you deny this? Nazis committed systematically destroyed Jews and Eastern Europeans because they are unwanted.
Second, Planned Parenthood has killed millions of human beings in abortion “clinics.” The Nazis killed millions of human beings in death camps.
Third, Planned Parenthood claims that their victims are subhuman. Do you say that this is not true? Nazis claimed that their victims were subhuman. Are you not educated about the Nazi claim that Jews and Eastern Europeans were untermensch (German for “subhuman”)?
More at https://www.fletcherarmstrongblog.com/abortion-not-like-the-holocaust-let-me-count-the-ways/
An educated person might know about the UN General Assembly Resolution 96, which defines genocide as “a denial of the right of existence of entire human groups, as homicide is the denial of the right to live of individual human beings; such denial of the right of existence shocks the conscience of mankind, … and is contrary to moral law and to the spirit and aims of the United Nations. … The General Assembly, therefore, affirms that genocide is a crime under international law … whether the crime is committed on religious, racial, political or any other grounds …”
If your claim to be “pro-life” is real, then surely you know that each abortion kills a human being because it is unwanted. It is an act of murder. If you are educated about the prevalence of abortion, then surely you know that millions of preborn human beings have been killed because they are both unwanted and unborn. Abortion most certainly meets the definition of genocide laid out in UN General Assembly Resolution 96.
Your statements about Seth Gruber are the classic ad hominem attack. You can’t address his arguments, so you attack him as a person. That doesn’t speak well of your education.
Does anyone think it would be appropriate, outside the dining hall, to display posters of two males engaged in homosexual behavior? One can be against a sin without supporting posters of it outside a dining hall.
While homosexuality acts are sin, there are not 1.2 million homosexuals being butchered each year in the U.S., which abortion is doing to unborn children. Furthermore, Westmont takes a stance against a homosexual lifestyle / acts, so there would be no need for anyone to put the signs that outside the DC that you are describing. Where as Westmont refuses to take a stance on the abortion issue, when 25 babies a week are being brutally aborted at Planned Parenthood in Santa Barbara. So your comparison isn’t quite a fair one.
Seth my darling, may God bless you with a dozen children some day, the world needs more like you! I was your age when abortion became legal. I have seen the world before contraception/abortion and since. What your poor generation doesn’t know is what the world looked like before women abdicated their true right to choose. Women once chose to save themselves for men that EARNED their breeding rights with strength of character, moral integrity, loyalty, and personal responsibility and self control. The evil lie that promiscuity is a right and a delight is a curse upon your age…just like in the first century after Christ. Good on ya good man! You are in my prayers.